Sep 1, 2026
VR doesn’t just have a vacancy problem. It has a pipeline problem.
What if the answer to VR’s workforce shortage isn’t simply filling the next vacancy?
Across the country, VR agencies are competing for talent, losing experienced staff, and trying to prepare a new generation of professionals—many of whom may not even know that VR is a career option.
In this episode of the Manager Minute, George Michna of Connecticut and Mario Lucero of New Mexico join Carol Pankow to talk about a different approach: intentionally building the VR workforce pipeline.
Drawing from their National Rehabilitation Leadership Institute (NRLI) project, George and Mario explore how career pathways, mentorship, apprenticeships, stronger onboarding, and leadership development can help agencies move from reacting to vacancies to developing talent for the long term.
They also tackle an equally important question: once we bring talented people into VR, what makes them want to stay?
If your agency is thinking about recruitment, retention, succession planning, or developing its next generation of leaders, this conversation is worth a listen.
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George: One of the biggest values of NRLI was the opportunity to step outside of your day to day work and to engage with colleagues, people who eventually become good friends of yours that live across the country, who are dealing with many of the same challenges.
Mario: We've really invested hard in our leadership team, and we're seeing the results of that now. We got out of a cap. We're really making positive progress towards meeting our performance metrics. We have a way better understanding of our data, and now we're really focusing on leadership and culture within our agency.
Intro voice: Manager minute, brought to you by the Vocational Rehabilitation Technical Assistance Center. Conversations powered by VR. One manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host, Carol Pankow.
Carol: Welcome to the Manager Minute. Joining me in the studio today are George Michna, Bureau Chief for Community Living from Connecticut Bureau of Rehabilitation Services, and Mario Lucero, Field Operations Director for New Mexico General. So, George, how's it going in Connecticut?
George: It's going good. Actually, the weather's finally holding it up here, so it's kind of nice to finally enjoy. Hopefully, a really nice summer.
Carol: Yeah, that is awesome. I know we've all been talking a lot about the weather in Minnesota. It's hot and sultry. It was 95 yesterday so you never think of that here. And Mario was so great to have you here as well. How are things on your end in New Mexico?
Mario: Thanks for having me, Carol. We're doing good here in New Mexico. Had a little bit of rain the last two weeks, which is really welcomed because we have been so dry and we have problems with forest fires here in New Mexico. So any rain that we get is welcome. So we're doing well.
Carol: Well, I never think of New Mexico and forest fires. I'm sorry Mario, I just think of you as being more deserty. But I know you have trees. I know you have...
Mario: We do.
Carol: So today we're going to talk about a topic that's coming up across the country and it's the workforce challenges in vocational rehabilitation. And George and Mario, part of a cohort from the National Rehabilitation Leadership Institute, or NRLI, which is a leadership program that brings together emerging leaders from across the VR system to take on some of the field's biggest challenges. And as part of that experience, their group developed a project focused on career pathways as a strategy for recruitment and retention in VR. And we're going to unpack what they found and why it matters right now. So let's dig in. So let's start with each of you. How did you get into VR and what has kept you in this work? And Mario, I'm going to go to you first.
Mario: Thanks, Carol. Well, for me, vocational rehabilitation is always aligned with who I am personally and professionally. I've spent my life around ministry, teaching, and helping professions. My father was both a minister and a teacher, and I think that shaped how I view people and purpose. I also live with significant physical disabilities myself, so I understand firsthand the importance of opportunity, independence, dignity, and meaningful work. VR gave me the opportunity to turn that into a lived experience and into a career where I could help others overcome barriers and pursue employment goals they may have once thought were impossible. What's kept me in this work is honestly the mission. We're not just processing cases or authorizing services. We're helping people build lives, support families, and regain confidence in themselves. You get to see real transformation in people's lives, and that's hard to walk away from once you've experienced it.
Carol: I love that, Mario, Thanks for sharing that. George, how about you?
George: So my pathway into vocational rehabilitation started in education. I was a special education teacher, later taught pre-service teachers. It was also a school administrator and then worked for the Connecticut State Department of Education. A lot of it has just been through those roles is that one thing that became clear that we put a lot of effort into supporting students while they're in school, but there's a disconnect. when it came to what happened after they exited school. So students would graduate, but the transition to employment or post-secondary pathways was not always strong or consistent. And I think that's really what drew me into vocational rehabilitation. It's one of the few systems that is specifically designed to bridge that gap between education and employment. And I think that what's really kept me here is both the impact and the work that we do. You see real outcomes when someone moves into employment and independence. And in my current role, I'm focused on kind of how those systems connect, both on the employment side and within community living, as well as education through a grant that we're running. So that's really kind of what's kept me engaged in the work, and just having those meaningful conversations with individuals about finding success in their lives.
Carol: Yeah, I had no idea about you.
George: Yeah.
Carol: Being an educator, that is very cool. It's always fun to see people's stories and how they get into this sort of a career. Appreciate that. So I know you both participated in NRLI, and I just wondered if you could tell our listeners a little bit about what that experience was like. And how did that shape your thinking as a leader? And George, I'll tag you first on that.
George: First and foremost. NRLI gave me the opportunity to step outside of my state and look at vocational rehabilitation from more of a national perspective. We were teamed with about, I think, 30 individuals or so as our cohort, and they represented both VR, general VR Blind and also combined agencies. And so you really get a mix of perspectives from individuals. And I think that's really powerful. And the other thing was, is that what really started finding, for example, was, is that, you know, you start looking at issues with your workforce, challenges that you might have, bringing in counselors and the like, and you start finding out that others are facing similar challenges. So you're able to have these kind of sidebar conversations throughout the time that you spent together. And you really get to learn from individuals about what other states are doing and how to kind of effectively problem solve.
Mario: And NRLI was an incredible experience because it forced us to step back and think beyond just our own state systems and day to day operations. You're sitting in a room with leaders from all over the country who are dealing with many of the same challenges, but often approaching them in different ways. For me personally, it challenged me to think more strategically and systemically as a leader, instead of only asking, how do we solve today's problem? It pushed me to ask, how do we build sustainable systems for the future? One of the biggest takeaways for me was realizing that many of our workforce challenges in VR are not isolated problems, they're national trends. That realization helped reinforce the importance of collaboration, innovation and leadership development across the entire VR system.
Carol: Well, I think we're definitely better together. NRLI, I love that bringing that sense of community because you can feel very isolated, you know, in your individual states and your agencies, and you learn how to do things a certain way. So you guys bring up a good point. You know, you hear other people with the same challenges, but they've tackled them differently. And so I love that kind of that transplanting of ideas that happens naturally through that cohort model. And you get, you know, you're with your group a whole year and you really get to know people. And I think that transplanting of ideas and that building that network that you can rely on later, because I'm sure you probably each have like email groups and all of that good stuff or chat groups with your folks from NRLI that you can just like, hey, we have this going on. What do you know about this? Or what are you guys doing? I think there's a lot of value in that. So I know as part of NRLI, your group focused on workforce and career pathways. How did you guys come up with that as your project?
George: Well, I gotta say this, it wasn't a project that we landed on right away. The way NRLI is structured, we do have multiple weeks that we meet across the year, and we also had opportunities to connect virtually to work through how the paper would shape out. Really, in the beginning, it was a lot of brainstorming where we were sitting, you know, outside by the pool on a break. And I still remember this to this day. And we went around the group just kind of mentioning some of the hot topics that we had and what were we thinking about. And really kind of what we started coming back to was the same issue was kind of a staffing piece. And I think that's kind of where we ended up thinking about the staffing and then kind of what solutions could we bring from our various states to address that? And I guess from a point of view, it was kind of a self-discovery process of the group in realizing what to write about.
Carol: Very cool. I love that organic. I know. Other groups too. They said they struggled like they might have come up with a particular topic. And then they were like, hey, we don't want to do that anymore. And they kind of move through the year and got exposed to different things. Other ideas came forward and they pivoted to something else.
George: I would say that was exactly the same experience that we had, and almost feeling at some point that we had to figure out something because time was running out.
Mario: I still remember that first day that you said when we sat around the pool and we were just brainstorming and we threw out like 50 million ideas. I think how we finally settled on career pathways and recruitment and retention was that we saw that this was a problem that we could realistically solve. We didn't want to bite off too much that we couldn't chew. And so we thought that maybe this was something that we could have an actual impact on.
Carol: So Mario, a little more about that. You know, it's a problem you were trying to solve. Why do you think this is so important right now. Like what's going on? Give it kind of the picture of what's happening out there.
Mario: Well, you know, Carol, the biggest problem we identified was that vocational rehabilitation is facing a workforce pipeline issue at a time when demand for services continues to grow. Across the country agencies are struggling with vacancies, burnout, retirements and turnover. At the same time, fewer people are entering the field intentionally because many people simply don't know that VR exists as a career pathway that creates a long term sustainability problem for the public VR system. What made this especially important to us is that workforce shortages don't just affect agencies internally, they directly impact the participants that we serve. Vacancies can lead to delayed services, increased caseload sizes, and less capacity for innovation and individualized support. So our group started asking instead of only reacting to vacancies after they happened, how do we intentionally build built pathways that introduce people to VR earlier. Developing future talent and creating opportunities for long term career growth within agencies that shift from reacting to shortages to proactively developing talent really became the foundation of our project and our paper.
Carol: Nice. So what are you guys seeing right now across the states in terms of the staffing shortages and turnover? I just wondered if there's been any kind of movement where it's getting a little bit better. I just, what did you find out.
George: When we looked at the work, kind of to build out the paper, we were seeing kind of a consistent piece where I think states were kind of dealing with this combination of persistent vacancies and high turnover, and that some states are, you know, obviously making a little bit of better progress in that. I think, you know, going back to looking at with Connecticut, I came to our agency on the heels of the Covid 19 pandemic. If you think about it, about five years ago, I was coming out of that rebounding. From that, we saw individuals with disabilities wanting to get back into employment. So you had this influx of people requesting services, but what you saw on the staffing side from the agency was, is that we had a lot of staff that either retired early or had kind of exited the employment of the agency. And so we were in the process of trying to refill those positions as we could. And we've done a really good job at that. But the implication of that is, is that we now shifted the agency from a mid to late career group of counselors to a workforce that's now more heavily weighted towards early mid-career staff. And that has implications for us because newer counselors often require smaller caseloads and more support to kind of ensure the quality services, as well as trying to ensure how do we prevent burnout among those staff as well? Also, what's happening is, is that we're seeing an added strain on our community rehabilitation providers in the state, and we see them as a critical part of the service delivery system. And so this now speaks to kind of the broader system that how can it then support individuals in achieving career goals? So that's kind of the perspective here in Connecticut.
Carol: Here you bring up a really good point, George, you know I hadn't thought about that with the newer counselors coming in. I guess just the way you had stated it and having people earlier in their career, you are shaping then you have in a smaller caseload, which impacts then your overall capacity for serving folks. So when you have a big bulk of people in that early part, even though you have the same number of people, they can't produce the same amount of work.
George: Exactly.
Carol: Yeah, you always need exponentially more folks to carry that out. And it takes a while. This system is hard, like to learn and understand and really feel like you're getting good and proficient at it. So we've kind of lost those later career counselors that were also serving as mentors and such. And I know in some states people are saying like, hey, we've got a whole new group. You've got 90% of your people have been there five years or less. You don't have that other group that can help to support them.
George: You know, it kind of then impacts your ability for supervisors to effectively mentor those staff because the added impact on them as well. So the entire system starts feeling that strain.
Carol: Yeah, it's really a ripple effect for sure. So I know you guys have mentioned before that people don't always choose VR as a career. So why does that matter for recruitment?
Mario: It matters because many of us in VR didn't grow up saying, I want to work in VR someday. Most people find this field accidentally through counseling programs, disability services, workforce programs, social work, education, or even personal life experiences such as myself. The challenge with that is that people don't know the profession exists. They're never going to intentionally pursue it. Other helping professions like teaching, nursing or social work. They have clear career pathways and pipelines and stronger public awareness. VR doesn't have that. So VR agencies are competing for talent in a field that many potential candidates never even heard of. That's why career pathways and apprenticeship models are so important. They create exposure. They allow students, paraprofessionals, community partners, and individuals with lived disability experience to see VR as a meaningful career option before they're already established somewhere else. I think the field has a huge opportunity here, especially because VR work is incredibly mission driven, that once people understand what we actually do and the impact we have, they'll be drawn to it, and the challenge is getting them exposed to it early enough.
Carol: Well it does really fit with our new administration. I mean, maybe not so new with our president now he's, you know, in his year two, but very big emphasis on apprenticeships and career pathways. And so it lines up with the administration's thinking on that as well. George, I know you've had a little touch with this. What would it look like, kind of the career pathway and apprenticeship model in a VR agency.
George: in Connecticut, we're starting to put together a formalized kind of mentorship program, if you will, where we're bringing in staff within our community, rehabilitation providers, where we can then provide a structured mentorship for them to kind of upskill their knowledge of working within kind of the VR space. The hope there is, is that they can gain experience in the areas like eligibility, plan development, employer engagement, and being able to kind of have that mentorship and feedback that's built into the process. And so our hope really is, is that kind of, you know, if you think about this as about opening the door wider at the front end, so that way we can become more intentional about how we develop staff once they're within our agency or within a provider. Again, this isn't about just simply filling positions. It's more about creating a pathway where someone can enter the field, develop the necessary skills over time, and see a future in the work. And I just want to say, you know, to your question before, if I can, I'm kind of a perfect example here because coming in from education, right? At no point in my kind of career trajectory was vocational rehabilitation presented as kind of a viable option for what I was doing. But an interesting note here is, is that within our NRLI cohort, and I was thinking about this, you know, in kind of getting ready for this podcast, there was at least three other individuals who started in special education and eventually ended up in VR. So I think there's something powerful there in terms of how we think about where we can draw upon individuals to help do the work that we're doing.
Carol: Absolutely. There definitely is a natural alignment there. I know back in the day, even in Minnesota, there was a while where school districts were laying off school counselors because they didn't have the funds. And we found that the school counselors had such a interesting background in the training they had that was super transferable over into VR because they're helping students think about employment goals. You know, think about all of that and then that group of people and you're like, why didn't we think of this before and had some really lovely staff come in from that background. I love that. Yeah, it's smart to think about what we align with. Now, I know in NRLI, the fourth week is always the DC week and that can be super impactful. You get to meet the, you know, agency kind of heads from all different, you guys were at Labor and Department of Ed with the Rehab Services Administration. Did you guys have an opportunity at all to share your work and get any sort of feedback from the feds about what you were working on here with this paper?
Mario: Yeah, we did. We had the opportunity to discuss our project and our paper and engage with leaders and stakeholders who are thinking about these same workforce challenges. One of the encouraging things was that the feedback we got really validated that this issue is being felt across the country. People recognize that recruitment and retention challenges are not just temporary, they're systemic issues that require long term strategies. And there was strong interest in the idea of developing intentional career pathways and apprenticeship style models because they create a more sustainable workforce pipeline instead of relying solely on traditional recruitment methods. I also think people appreciate that our approach focused not just on filling vacancies, but on developing leaders, increasing retention and creating growth opportunities within the VR agencies. That's important because recruitment and retention really go hand in hand. Bringing people in is only half the battle. You also have to create environments where people want to stay and grow, right?
Carol: Yeah. Excellent point Mario, because if you bring people in and they don't stay, you just have a churn that's not going to help anything. You've got to create that inviting, welcoming, wonderful environment that people can learn and grow. Because that's what lots of our, you know, our young people coming in, they aren't coming to the state to just work for 40 years like maybe their parents had or someone else. They want a job they can grow into.
Mario: And to add to that, Carol, I've been in the field of VR for almost 19 years now. I can remember going back to the early 2000, when a lot of the people in VR had a master's in VR, and there were plenty of people within the field offices to mentor new counselors coming in. But ever since the mid 20 tens, you know, WIOA came out, that's really dwindled. And we have people with less and less experience and really nobody to mentor. And as George mentioned, really heavily, depending on the program managers to be those mentors and trainers, It's just too hard because they're also having to drop below their 3000-foot level, down to the 1500 zero foot level to take on case load work, you know?
Carol: Right.
Mario: And he's not able to provide that mentorship as well as we maybe once did in VR in previous generations.
Carol: Yeah, we got to look at this in a whole different way. So speaking of looking at this, looking ahead, what's one change you guys hope to see in the VR workforce because of this work? And George, I'm going to throw it to you first.
George: It's like the million dollar question right?
Carol: Yes. Drum roll.
George: Drum roll.
(laughter)
George: I think the biggest thing I would like to see is a shift in how we think about building the vocational rehabilitation workforce. And what I mean by that is, is that a lot of energy goes into reacting to vacancies and trying to fill positions quickly. And I think what we really need to do, kind of what Mario was mentioning earlier is, is that, you know, building something that looks a little bit more intentional that we have these clear pathways into the field. We have strong mentorships, better onboarding, and real opportunities for growth over time. And I also think that I'm really hoping that we are able to continue strengthening the professional identity of VR. This is incredibly meaningful work for anyone that does this. It truly sits at the crossroads of education, workforce development, disability services, employment, and a host of other things. But what's kind of unfortunate is, is that a lot of individuals are just not aware about the field or the impact that it can have. So it's kind of an interesting paradox, and I would love to see individuals more intentionally choose VR as a career because of how powerful the mission is. I think Mario had mentioned that before about a mission, and I think that that kind of holds true there. If I had a wish, I guess that's what it would be.
Carol: I love it. Mario, how about you?
Mario: Well, if I could say ditto, I would. But what George and I have said today is that our paper and our project, we wanted to be more intentional about workforce development within the VR system. We'd love to see students, interns, apprentices, and professionals from all related fields become aware of VR much earlier in their careers. We also hope that agencies continue building cultures that invest in mentorship, leadership development, and professional growth so employees can see long term futures within the system. But ultimately, we hope this work helps strengthen the stability of the VR workforce because when agencies are fully staffed, supported and developing future leaders, participants receive better services and better outcomes. And at the end of the day, that's what we're really all about, right?
Carol: Absolutely. I think it'd be super cool if somebody came up and did this and came up with that. Like the registered apprenticeship for this, for the VR program, if someone took that on and, and did the thing because it would set the way for the rest of the country. And who knows, you could end up getting some credentials there, Mario and George, You know that you could report on your common performance measures and all of that. I think it would be pretty incredible.
Okay. I'm going to throw you guys one last question. I wanted just to circle back to NRLI. I know we have lots of listeners and people are on the fence about whether, you know, to do something or make that investment because it is an investment of time and money for that year. In doing that kind of training, do you have any kind of little parting comment or little plug you could do for NRLI? And George, I'm going to throw out to you first.
George: To me again. Oh boy. All right Mario, you can't say ditto. Okay. Without a question, 100% hands down. I would recommend it. I can't even talk enough about it. It was an amazing experience. You're absolutely correct, Carol, it is a lot of work. There certainly are some time constraints, me being on the East Coast, for example, having to go out to San Diego three times a year and then DC also, you know, just kind of the impact on terms of like how you can do your normal job, right? And as well as kind of your personal and family commitments. But I think we said this earlier was, is that one of the biggest values, if you will, of NRLI, was the opportunity to step outside of your day to day work and to engage with colleagues and actually people who eventually kind of become good friends of yours that live across the country, who are dealing with many of the same challenges. We have text groups, we kind of have friended each other on social media. And, you know, we're kind of, you know, shooting questions back and forth to each other to this day. And I think that speaks a lot to what NRLI can give to an individual. So it's certainly about value and relationships and this national network of individuals that are still kind of keeping in touch with. And I think probably the saddest part of the entire experience, if anyone wanted to ask, was that last day when we were all leaving DC and kind of realizing that we're not really going to have an opportunity to see each other.
Carol: Yeah, well said George, well said. Mario, you get our last word, but it can't be. Ditto.
George: Yeah.
Mario: All right. You know what I would have to say is, if I'm speaking to the directors of VR agencies, and especially those that are kind of on the fence of sending staff from their agency to NRLI, What I would definitely say is it's a commitment and it's a long term commitment. And what I mean by that is you can't just send a few once and think that that's enough value added to your agency. You've got to commit over a long time horizon to send staff each year. And you know, Carol, you worked with New Mexico VR through the VRTAC. I'm sure that you've seen our leadership team within New Mexico really grow and develop over the last few years. And that's because the New Mexico VR agency has sent cohorts to the last, I would say at least six, maybe even seven cohorts. And so we've really invested hard in our leadership team in New Mexico. And we're seeing the results of that now. We got out of a cap, we're really making positive progress towards meeting our performance metrics. We have a way better understanding of our data. And now we're really focusing on leadership and culture within our agency. And we're really hoping that going forward, New Mexico VR will be a real place that people want to work at and stay.
Carol: Yeah, it really is an investment in your people. I've seen it all over the country and my own, my work with you all, I've seen it, seen the deck chairs move. People have been in interline. They've moved up in their career in New Mexico VR, like I've seen folks in new positions. And it's really been lovely, lovely to see. And I've been appreciative of the management they're investing in VR and we are just so our listeners know why I'm plugging NRLI. It is part of our VRTAC grant and so we do support NRLI. A number of us on the TAC also serve as instructors throughout the various sessions, in addition to there's a faculty for NRLI. So I appreciate you both. I think you did a great job on your paper. If people want to see your paper, they can go to VRTAC.org and go to our top nav NRLI. There's a whole section on NRLI. And you can see the cohort's paper right there. So thank you both. I hope you have a great day. Thanks for joining me.
Mario: Thanks, Carol.
George: Thank you, Carol.
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Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time. One minute at a time. Brought to you by the VRTAC. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening.